New Recordings on the Archive: AT822 line-in to NH900

[mrsoul]

I have posted 2 new recordings of the Derek Trucks Band on the Live Music Archive from

12-29-04 The Visulite Theatre, Charlotte, NC

12-31-04 The Variety Playhouse, Atlanta, GA

Both of these were recorded using an AT822 line-in to NH900 with the bass filter active.

No problems with the Sonic Stage transfer.

You may be interested to know that I used Hi-SP for the 2nd set on New Year's Eve (thought I might need more time but it wasn't needed anyway). It still sounds pretty good to me. Man, the transfer time for Hi-SP to PC is nothing compared to PCM upload time.

These were all normalized with Cool Edit Pro after conversion with the Sony WAV converter tool.

Of note, I did add a new dry cell AA during the 2nd set and the battery meter DID go up after the new battery was added. This was the first time I noticed that happen. Good to know it pulls from both at the same time and updates the meter accordingly. I had previously thought the recorder had to power cycle to update the power meter.

I think these recordings turned out really well. The 12-29-04 is especially good. The 12-31 has a lot of party noises, as is expected on NYE. Still the NH900 shines as usual.

Enjoy!

Happy New Year!

[craftech]

I listened to the December 29 concert as you recommended. The band is very good. The audio quality on the other hand leaves a lot to be desired. What is lacking is clarity and definition particularly with the vocals.

That may be a result of one of the following:

1. The band itself wasn't set up properly.

2. The minidisc recorder was going into distortion levels (you indicated the mike was 10 feet from the band). That's pretty close.

3. Normalizing the audio muddied the vocals and reduced overall clarity of the instrumentals as well.

After listening I used the Flac download and the Flac frontend to convert to wave before burning to a CD. I played it for a few people. All of them liked the band, most commented on the low audio quality as well.

John

Edited January 7, 2005 by craftech

[mrsoul]

I listened to the December 29 concert as you recommended.  The band is very good.  The audio quality on the other hand leaves a lot to be desired.  What is lacking is clarity and definition particularly with the vocals.

That may be a result of one of the following:

1.  The band itself wasn't set up properly.

2.  The minidisc recorder was going into distortion levels (you indicated the mike was 10 feet from the band).  That's pretty close.

3.  Normalizing the audio muddied the vocals and reduced overall clarity of the instrumentals as well.

After listening I used the Flac download and the Flac frontend to convert to wave before burning to a CD.  I played it for a few people.  All of them liked the band, most commented on the low audio quality as well.

John

←

Thanks for the feedback:

1. I found the vocals to be "hot" standing there in person, Mike does get too loud at times and I think it could be improved as well.

2. The mic is 10 feet in the air, not 10 feet from the band. The mics were directly in front of the board. It was probably about 25 to 35 feet from the stage.

3. I haven't made up my mind about the normalizing, it does give it more volume and I have wondered about that at times. The highest the levels went was well below distortion levels. Most of my comparisons after normalization don't illustrate a big change in the mix, just the volume of the sound.

If you like the band, check out their Live CD "Live at the Georgia Theatre". I take your comments seriously. But, you can only capture what you get some times due to crowd noise and how loud the sound guy is pushing the mix. I know the AT822 isn't perfect but it does a good job to me. I have had others tell me they liked the sound quality. I guess it's what you normally look for in a live amateur capture. Thanks again and I will take the time next recording to listen to the WAV raw instead of normalizing (which was up to 95 of 100 using Cool Edit Pro)

[mrsoul]

Man, this has really got me examining this recording. The 12-29-04 sounds much better than "leaves much to be desired". I am listening right now and I hear all the instruments: if you can hear the congas, the flute, drums, and Derek's guitar all clearly during the louder parts, then that's pretty good. I am listening on cheap monitor speakers from an mp3 source and can hear the instruments well and Mike is in a loud falsetto. Granted, Mike's vocals do get up there but the levels are not distorted.

I have listened to this show on my Polk Audios at home and it sounds solid to me. Not my best but definitely better than "leaves a lot to be desired". I would be interested in the comments of other board members here at MDCF: Dex, Chris, and others, etc. If I have not deleted the raw OMG files, I will give them a listen when I get home but I think I deleted them last night. Oh well, I know this sounds good enough for my enjoyment. It's kinda like my guitar playing. If it makes me happy, then it makes me happy...

Thanks and have a great weekend.

Mark

[dex Otaku]

The thing about live recordings like this is that the recording is -not- of the band; the recording is of the -room-.

Stereo mic'ing a band playing through a PA is actually a next-to useless exercise in terms of trying to capture the band in stereo. For one thing, most live PA systems [especially smaller ones such as those permanently installed in clubs] run in mono only.

The only way to get a band in true stereo is to either have them all play acoustically, or to set the instruments up around the mic and run without a central PA, only with instrument amps [whose physical locations make up the stereo image].

Otherwise, with this recording as with almost all others in done indoors and of PAs, all the stereo effect of the mic [is/are] good for is the sense of "being there," which, even with M/S and coincident-Y mic arrangements, still sounds better on headphones than over speakers [iMHO].

Judging the quality of the recording in these cases is very difficult, since what's being recorded is actually kind of shitty, really.

What you end up with is a very accurate recording of occasionally unlistenable sound.

Being able to monitor and choose mic placement based on actual listening inside the space [test recordings or isolation monitoring] helps a lot. Sound check is perfect for this, especially if the FOH engineer and the band know you're recording and are co-operative in giving you a minute or two to set up.

Of course, it's next to impossible to do this when stealth recording.

I no longer consider concert bootlegs to be what I'd consider "listening music." The only purpose they serve to me is to get an impression of what a band is like live, what kind of energy they have along with the crowd's. The immersiveness of most live recordings [being made from the crowd] can provide a real sense of "being there" that transcends the technical problems that almost always occur - shifts in mic position, arseholes yelling in the recordist's ear, &c.

While I haven't actually listened to the recordings yet, that is the standpoint I'd be looking at them from.

In these cases, I actually rarely consider the fidelity to be of crucial importance - it's very difficult to get good-fidelity let alone high-fidelity recordings of live shows without having some kind of mix straight from the sound board to mix with ambience.

Basically, my rule of thumb is this: take it for what it is.

Which is why I'm often surprised by how good some of the bootlegs that people make with MDs and a $100 microphone are.

[craftech]

Mrsoul,

I noticed in another post of yours that you use Line In with your AT822. Perhaps that played a factor in your need to "normalize" the tracks. The only time I have ever used Line IN with that mike is through a mixer to the Line Input of a DV Camera. Otherwise, with small recording devices such as the MZ-NH900 I always use Mic In and set the levels manually rather on the conservative side (below 50%). I think Dex explained the reasons better in that other post.

John

[mrsoul]

I like to use the Line In because I have found the mic in to:

1. clip and distort too easily with loud bands

2. add "noise" to the recording

I always use manual settings. That's why I got the 40ELK remote, to set and monitor the recording levels in the dark.

I listened to this show several times on a road trip in the last 24 hours and I find it very enjoyable for my standard: for this band and for this type of recording. I probably could have converted the raw WAV to FLAC instead of using CEP to normalize due to the loud volume of the band during most of the show but I listened to the first track I normalized to compare and went with the louder volume. The one problem was that was a instrumental track and I probably should have listened to an instrumental track and a track with vocals to judge first. Oh well, like I said, I am enjoying this one regardless. It's not perfect, like Dex stated, but it is a good recording and the performance was fantastic in my book.

I can't say enough that you should listen to their "Live at Georgia Theatre" which you can sample at iTunes and I think Connect. It's very well mixed soundboard and audience matrix mix. I was at that show on the front row as well (I hear a few of my comments in the audience too). It should be noted that Derek is in a transition stage from small clubs and dives to larger theatre settings. I also find his soundstage mix to be in a transition as well. Mike's vocals are probably the weakest link at times due to the heavy instrumental leanings of the band. Still, it's not bad in my book.

Thanks for the feedback and I have enjoyed the discussion. This is a work in progress for me. I know I should look into a preamp with phantom power mics to get more depth; but, for now with 2 kids and a wife at home, it's the best thing going and relatively low hassle at the show. Just throw up the mic on the stand and straight into the line in. I do have a shock mount that I got from www.shockmount.com to help cut down on any movement of the stand interferring with the recording and I think it has proved to be well worth the $25. I also have some Giant Squid Audio clip on cardioids that I use for stealth that I once used in place of the AT822 and any movement with those or wind would ruin the sound.

I have had good comments from the Derek lists and from friends, it does serve a purpose: the listener does get a good idea of what is going on with the band and the crowd. When I want to crank up some Live Derek, I pull out the Live CD. When I want to listen to a particular show to relive those few hours of fun, I put on my recording. I have made some very poor recordings of Derek that I refuse to post because of too much crowd, wind noise, mic problems,etc. I only post to the archive what I consider to be worth sharing with others who enjoy the band and the energy captured therein. Your mileage may vary and that's fine with me. But, get the official soundboard and see what you think.

[Christopher]

mrsoul, if you had to pick one to put on a Hi-MD disc, which would you choose? That way I can download it and pop it in before I go to work..

[mrsoul]

mrsoul, if you had to pick one to put on a Hi-MD disc, which would you choose? That way I can download it and pop it in before I go to work..

←

Off the Archive? I would go for 4-01-04. It was my Sharp DR7 from the Midas board on an AKG audience mic source. It's been downloaded over 8,000 times from the Archive.

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details...m=browsePopular

This is the last unofficial SBD to make it out (they quit the soundboards after they signed with Columbia House records) ... http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=4641 (11-16-02)

The 12-29-04 really ain't bad, it is thin on the bass side (AT822 bass filter) and the vocals are a little "hot" at time. But, give the "Live at Georgia Theatre" a spin if you have the 9.99 for the album download. Which is a great price for a Live 2 CD download.

[Christopher]

Cool, cool. I'll give the Variety Playhouse a shot first as I lived in Georgia for a decade and a half and have been there too many times to count. I'll post some impressions after I get it on Hi-MD and give it a good listen!

[craftech]

I didn't realize that the band was so popular. In fact, after it was too late I realized that they were playing in the town where my mother lives TONIGHT.

I can see why they were signed. I also didn't make the connection with the name "Trucks". Derek Trucks is Butch Trucks' nephew and has played with the Allman Brothers Band as well. I thought a few tunes sounded like them before I found out about the connection. Good band.

John

Edited January 9, 2005 by craftech

[craftech]

The show from April 1, 2004 at the Lincoln Theater in Raleigh, NC sounds really good. Both the performance and the audio were good.

I really liked their version of the Stevie Wonder song "To Know You is To Love You". Nice guitar improv. BB King did that song also. Great song.

John

[mrsoul]

When I went to the Y this AM with my MZ-S1, I found out that I had made a copy of the raw ATRAC files of the 12-29-04 show. I really can't tell much difference on the vocals or the mix from the normalized version. There might be a touch too much vocal, but I have listened to that 12-29 almost everyday and I still think it's a solid recording. As you listen more to the band, John, you may begin to have a better idea of how they sound. That's funny you mention the "To Know You Is To Love You". Derek replied to a "Ask Derek" email thing on his website that I sent in about that question, here's the text:

Question: Who’s version of “To Know You Is To Love You” do you prefer? B.B. King or Stevie Wonder? Just curious since I hear a little of both in your performance, which is one of my favorite dTb covers.

Answer (Derek): I first heard the BB version and that's what we learned it from. Later on I heard a live Stevie version and loved it. I think the way we play it is somewhere in the middle. I try to play like BB and the band is leaning towards the Stevie track. You can find that on the main www.derektrucks.com page.

Okay, back to the discussion...

Here's what I was thinking, since I no longer have the ATRAC3plus files on the PC and only these ATRAC3 LP2 files on the standard MD, there really isn't any way to salvage other than Line out on the NH900 into the PC input. Like I said, there really is little difference, so I think it would be an exercise in futility. But, if you (John, Craftech) want to listen, then PM your address and I will drop that in the mail.

Am I missing a trick in another way to clone a MD?

The ATRAC 3 files were "converted" by Sonic Stage before I converted the ATRAC3plus to WAV.

Anybody know what SS does to the ATRAC3plus when converting to ATRAC3?

[dex Otaku]

I would check in the file properties. It's likely that SS has kept the original copy as well as the lp2 one. Just -rightclick on the file in the SS library then go to 'properties' if I'm not mistaken. The last tab on the window should tell you what copies of the file it has stored.

[mrsoul]

Dex-

That would be too easy. I actually deleted everything off the PC. I keep the SS folders empty most of the time. I have a fast trigger finger when it comes to cleaning out the recycle bin as well

[mgdimo]

So then mrsoul, where do you store recordings and stuff you want to keep around?

[tribalwind]

these guys played near me at the IMAC theater http://imactheater.com/

, i wanted to get a group to go but everyone flaked (losers!)

now i really wish i'd jsut gone alone'

[mrsoul]

So then mrsoul, where do you store recordings and stuff you want to keep around?

←

I always keep the FLAC file around on my 2nd HD and burn to a CD. I am hoping to get a DVD burner really soon and then I will back up the FLAC files to that. I may also start keeping just the raw WAV to FLAC and edited WAV to FLAC of the same show.

I taped the same band in Augusta, Georgia at the Historic Imperial Theater last night (Jan 13th, 2005). It's one of James Brown's old haunts. Great place but the acoustics weren't very good at all. I am in the process of posting this show to the archive as well. The performance was stunning at times last night. I avoided any editing this time around, you can just use your volume control if you want it louder. Just straight OMG PCM to WAV to FLAC. I will post the archive address later.

BTW, if you are interested, check out this campaign I am running for their drummer who had a major emergency surgery in 2001 and still has substantial medical bills. Check it out and help out if you can...

http://www.5in5foryonrico.com

Thanks for indulging me on this topic thread. Glad I could help expose such a great band just a little more.

[dex Otaku]

I finally got around to listening to these two recordings..

The common element between them [as with virtually all live recordings made by micing the space] is that sense of being inside a box.

Most people don't reflect on the fact that when you point a mic into a room and hit record, you're recording the room, really. It's a bit like the bad PA/good band analogy, and in fact is a corollary to it - a good PA can't make a shoddy band sound good, but a good band sounds good even on a bad PA.

Likewise, a good band can still sound great in a place that is a craphole in the acoustic sense.

That said...

The Visulite recording sounds more .. bassy. The band itself is clearer, from what I'm hearing so far.

The Variety Playhouse recording sounds like it's in a better space. The crowd is balanced almost perfectly in a stereo sense, and the room acoustics don't seem to make things wacky. The bass is weaker, but a pinch of EQ fixes that. This one seems much clearer in an overall sense, even though there's much more of a sense of listening to a recording of a PA system rather than listening to a band.

I seem to prefer the Variety Playhouse recording.

[mrsoul]

Thanks for the feedback Dex. I prefer the Visulite because of the bassy sound. One of the gems of this band is the bass player. The Visulite is warmer and more full sounding to me. But, I do hear what you are saying about the room acoustics. I think some EQ would do the Variety some good as well. I appreciate you taking the time to listen.

The show I recorded on Thursday is in the link below. It was a beautiful venue but the acoustics were not very beautiful at all. Still the performance was above normal for me and I had a blast recording and listening. No problems with SS upload. Enjoy and I appreciate your feedback on this one as well. No normalizing this time, just straight OMG>WAV>FLAC.

Thanks again for the feedback from everyone!

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=21211

[tribalwind]

these guys played near me at the IMAC theater http://imactheater.com/

, i wanted to get a group to go but everyone flaked (losers!)

now i really wish i'd jsut gone alone'

←

i listened to a few of your recordings and i can safely say.

NOW i really regret missing their show.

hope to god they swing back this wayASAP!

and great job with the rec job. hell even the mp3's sound good

but i guess thats also a little of the 'good band -bad PA' effect

Edited January 16, 2005 by tribalwind

[mgdimo]

I finally got around to listening to these two recordings..

The common element between them [as with virtually all live recordings made by micing the space] is that sense of being inside a box.

Most people don't reflect on the fact that when you point a mic into a room and hit record, you're recording the room, really.  It's a bit like the bad PA/good band analogy, and in fact is a corollary to it - a good PA can't make a shoddy band sound good, but a good band sounds good even on a bad PA. 

Likewise, a good band can still sound great in a place that is a craphole in the acoustic sense. 

That said...

The Visulite recording sounds more .. bassy.  The band itself is clearer, from what I'm hearing so far. 

The Variety Playhouse recording sounds like it's in a better space.  The crowd is balanced almost perfectly in a stereo sense, and the room acoustics don't seem to make things wacky.  The bass is weaker, but a pinch of EQ fixes that.  This one seems much clearer in an overall sense, even though there's much more of a sense of listening to a recording of a PA system rather than listening to a band.

I seem to prefer the Variety Playhouse recording.

←

I have to agree with pretty much everything Dex mentions here. I listened to a good part of the beginning of each show via the streaming option.

The Visulite recording sounded "wavy" or "warbley" to me, as things sometimes sound when streaming. Somthins not quite right to my ears.

The Variety recording immediately sounds much clearer. I can only imageine it's much closer to how your ears heard it. Yes, sounds like a better room/setting for clarity of sound. I can really monitor the drumming--which is what I naturally focus on, so that serves as sort of a barometer for me.

Mark, I'd LOVE to hear the differences between what you got with the AT822whateverwhatever and what an Auris-->Boost Box combo would produce! Hmmmm....

[mrsoul]

Thanks for the reply. I would recommend that you download a part of the Visulite show instead of streaming. Try something in the 2nd set like the "Hey Driver" or "Pedro" these 2 instrumentals will give you a better idea of what it sounded like. It did take a little while to get the room dialed in and I still think the vocals were up that night. Thanks again for the feedback.

Maybe one day the Auris but for now the Audio Technica AT822 will have to be the Mule for this train. I do like the simple set-up: mic up, line in, turn on the MD, switch to manual record, place on pause, put the recorder on HOLD and then work everything else with the 40ELK remote. It's almost too easy for decent results.

Edited January 16, 2005 by mrsoul